Quote from: Telcontar on Oct 13, 2021, 06:53 PM I seem to recall we had a discussion a few years ago about Rally Comrades and/or Second wind were under whelming combat actions.

Just shifting the discussion here so it doesn't derail the combat too much.  I kind of agree with you, though it can make a lot of difference if you time it well.  The new edition has some actions that let you combine them with an attack, which I quite like - it makes things a little more dramatic. 

So I dont think it should be like some kinda D&D healing surge but a 4 endurance gain is really only good to take you out of weariness if you are just above or below the line. Sacrificing the attack roll however means your likely to be in the same position at the start of the next round or worse. Take for instance the current combat. Pausing in attacks is actually going to hurt us than help us.

Maybe a free Second Wind roll after a combat?

But we dont often roll from one combat into another so that may just be addressing a symptom and not the problem.

I think it mostly comes down to Action economy. There is no mechanic that I see (except our house ruled Stance maneuvers i.e. Sweeping Blow) that gives a character the ability to attack more than once.

I do not think it needs to get into a D&D structured system of Swift, Standard, and Free actions per round, but maybe we design a house rule that states at Valour level 3, a PC can make one additional attack in a round per encounter; at Valour level 4 they may make two; and so on. Maybe also the mechanic can state the PC can make an attack and a maneuver in one round.

In small combats of 1-on-1, these mechanics might not be necessary, but in this circumstance where an Orc can level you with a hit, it might be necessary. Granted, we can level an Orc with a hit, but when there are multiple opponents that get 3+ attacks, the economy shifts heavily in their favor.

Just an announcement - I am leaving for Florida tomorrow morning, as my daughter is getting married this weekend. I will be available to play, so I will follow along and post as I can, but it might be slow for me. Paul, take control of Esgalwen as needed.

Wow, cool!  I hope everything goes smoothly. 

Quote from: tomcat on Oct 19, 2021, 02:42 PM Second Wind has been one of our House Rule maneuvers since we started this game. Are you not allowing it as Loremaster?

To be clear, I'm not disallowing anything.  I've made frequent and enthusiastic use of the house-ruled maneuvers myself and I'm not about to start being hypocritical.  I'm just pointing out that it doesn't stop you being Weary if your Endurance has been knocked down below the threshold.  Which leads me to...

Quote from: Telcontar on Oct 18, 2021, 10:19 PM if rally comrades or second wind doesnt take you over the threshold of weariness than what's the point of sacrificing an attack to execute the action?

This is a reasonable question.  Without wanting to be needlessly defensive, Rally Comrades gives everyone a boost to their Endurance, while Second Wind gives an individual a larger one.  If nothing else, this keeps you in the fight longer.  You may still be hindered by weariness, but it might make the difference between being taken out and not.  Also, if used before characters are Weary, it can keep that bugbear away a little longer. 

I note that 2nd Ed has a completely different effect for Rallying - it gives people in close combat a boost to their attacks.  Given how much easier it is to recover Endurance outside of combat, I guess this makes sense. 

In 1E, there's a separate action ('enhearten comrades') in the Adventurer's Guide which uses the same roll, but lets characters ignore Weariness for a number of rounds without restoring any Endurance. 

Thinking about Weariness from a game design standpoint, I can see that the writers really wanted to make Weariness dangerous.  Falling below your Fatigue threshold and copping a penalty until the next time you get to a safe resting place:
a) is in line with the 'combat is dangerous' feel that they were clearly aiming for, and
b) is the main thing keeping PCs from loading up on the heaviest gear they can access and becoming difficult to meaningfully hurt. 

If you can shrug off Weariness easily, then players are less motivated to treat enemies as the potentially-lethal opponents that they all are, and the characters act less like Tolkien protagonists and more like... well... D&D PCs. 

So, without wanting to change how Weariness works in ways that subtly change a large part of the game, I propose a new house rule: combine the Rally and Enhearten actions.  Make a Song or Inspire roll.  A success lets all Companions injured in the current engagement recover two Endurance points OR ignore Weariness for two rounds (each PC chooses).  A great success lets companions recover three Endurance OR gives three rounds of no Weariness.  Extraordinary successes give five points, or the PC's Heart rating, in recovered Endurance or grant four rounds, or their Valour rating, in rounds without Weariness, whichever is greater. 

Sound good?

Paul I agree with all of your thoughts on game design and Tolkien like feel. The issue I had was with action economy. The attack action to quickly end the engagement seems like a much better option than Rally Comrades would be unless:
1. The PCs outnumber the enemies
2. A character is in a rearward stance and helps the other players

Second wind seems pointless to execute in a battle, but would make sense if you could do it after a battle. Otherwise the gamey portion of this is during the last round the PCs toy with a dying foe to gain endurance that they wont be able to gain outside of combat.

Quote from: Telcontar on Oct 20, 2021, 04:26 AM Paul, dont pull any punches here, without risk their is no challenge. i'm emotionally and storywise ok to leave Hathcyn behind in this field if thats what happens.

So be it!  I wasn't pulling any in any case (otherwise I would've just led the slide and not given the orcs any bonuses), but it's good to know you're on board. 

If I was to really go gunning for someone, it'd be one of the more experienced characters.  Games (and stories) spanning this kind of time frame work best when there's a reasonable turnover of characters, rather than one 'slot' being filled with newbie after newbie.  I believe I've said as much before. 

I'm sorry guys I had to hit the road, been driving since yesterday

Welcome home (you're home, right?).  I hope your trip went well.

Paul,
 I did a word search for Hope in the forum search. There were 7 direct and 1 possible up to the LM posts where I mentioned I would use a Hope point. Hathcyns total is 13-8=6. Its possible one was spent for me and I never used the word hope myself so it didnt show in the search. So the character sheet is pretty close if we never gained any Hope back during a Fellowship Phase, but that doesnt seem right to me. 

Still on the road until this coming weekend. Son had a last-minute change in plans regarding his graduation road trip, so heading south to the FL keys.

Drive safe, Matt.  Enjoy the ceremony!

Tom, let's go ahead and make your total above the official one.  I trust your count more than I would my own at the moment.

Sorry everyone.  I know you've been waiting for me to kick the next chapter off.  I've been busy, and now I'm - not sick to any great degree - but run-down enough that coming up with a good opener has proven very hard.  I'm hoping to be back on form in the next day or two.

'Til then, happy Thanksgiving (I think this is about the right time). 

Okay, so Arbogast's prevarication is partly scene- and mood-setting, but I'm also wondering when Doug is going to pop back up.  Have any of you had any news from him of late?