I'm guessing the challenge comes from us having to convince increasingly powerful and desperate people to do things they really don't want to do.  That's a perfectly fine justification for higher-than-average TNs (Arbogast's failed attempt to convince Caewin to get rid of the Helm of Peace springs to mind).  I would argue, though, that letting the average interaction TN (or whatever) steadily inflate without any justification kinda robs players of the benefit of seeing their skills increase. 

Who is letting the average TN inflate? Secondly, I didn't know you guys wanted a justification on every test for encounters.

If you need justification here it is:

• The Insight test was normal if you knew about Elven culture, otherwise it would be harder to gain bonus dice.
• The Intro test was broken into two TN's because it is hard for those to know the mind of an Elf, who are not Elves. It is even harder to know the mind of someone whose lived for centuries when a PC is only 20 to 40+ years old. It is even harder to know how to address a king when you have been a commoner your whole life. It is even harder to know how to address a king who can be an absolute prick.
• The Interaction tests were also set to hard because you guys needed to be wily - to give information the king wanted, but not reveal everything about yourselves. Thranduil might be an ally, but he is also the kind of king that would take words and information and use them to serve his purposes. I think of him as an accomplished gambler who knows his hand, thinks he knows yours, but will bluff the hell out of you and get everything he needs.

So there is the justifications. Now, where do I come up with it...

If we go to the text, Thranduil is the biggest prick of an Elf in all of Middle-earth, except for maybe Feanor. He cages the Dwarves in the Hobbit for doing nothing except looking for food. Granted, he  holds a grudge against Dwarves as a whole that either extends from them drawing Smaug or back to Belegost when they stole the Silmarils from Thingol. Either way, he is described as one of the most difficult of characters. From the Heart of the Wild...

"He is a stern, imperious king, unforgiving to his enemies, but kind and wise and fatherly to his people. He prefers to rely on the strength of the Elves of Mirkwood rather than ally with outsiders. If he has a weakness, it is his pride — he will brook no insolence, nor will he bear any slight..."

I did not inflate the tests to impossible - I made them hard.

One of the biggest things I think players have to deal with when they play in Middle-earth is that their PC's don't know all the things that we know as players (and lovers of Tolkien canon). Bandy is a simple Hobbit from the Shire. Arbogast a Woodman who has probably only once seen an Elf. We think that they would know how to talk to a king? Let alone a prick of a king? Thranduil doesn't care about the Shire. I don't think he truly cares about the men of the wood - he cares about his people and their survival, and no interference in their way of life. Beyond that, he is as stated above.

Understand, too, that things are sometimes hard and sometimes you guys will fail. The great thing is dice, bonus dice, and hope, that can bring you through in the end. It is what makes a scene either fun or same ole same ole. You guys need to decide whether the use of the resources serves you. The great thing is, though, you guys hardly needed resources. Your PC's are growing in skill and managed to sate a king.

I hope this helps.

Lastly, remember guys - you weren't here to convince Thranduil of anything else other than whether or not you are strong heroes that can do what he has been told you have done - by Gandalf and Radagast.

If you achieve the goal, it is not to sway Thranduil to be all in with a United Mirkwood - it is to be allowed to have the privilege of returning to the Elf realm without being taken at spear or arrow point. If anything, it gives Thranduil a tool to use to help gain his own ends.

I hope you are getting his subtlety.

You guys as players of characters that are not lords of realms need to learn how to turn the advantage of having the Elf realm as a location that you can use to your benefit.

The last thing I will say on this is I need you guys to remember, too, that what I give in cut scenes is not necessarily knowledge that the PC's even know about. I gave information to you all as players, in the intro cut scene of one of our threads, so you have a dynamic world around you and could see that stuff is going on all around Middle-earth.

I am not sure if the PC's know that the three Ringwraiths have returned to Mirkwood. Maybe the one in Dol Guldur, but not the other two. I can't remember if they were directly relayed that information from someone... maybe Radagast? I would have to search the threads.

That said, I do not want you guys to change anything you have posted - it is all fine. I just want to remind you all that you are each limited to a certain amount of character knowledge, even though your personal knowledge on Tolkien is vast. Take everything you know from the books, the movies, the RPG info and ask yourself how much would my PC really know of this.

Quote from: Telcontar on Jan 22, 2017, 04:24 PMThere has been some criticism of the Interaction mechanic on the G+ page for the TOR game. I would like to say however, that Doug's handling of our interaction with Thranduil is probably a great example of how it should be done. There is was no tyranny of the dice, but our level of success was determined by how many success we had. As an AAR comment I would say that its better to roll the dice first and then use them to describe what you are doing so that you can incorporate the die roll into the interaction instead of dropping a Cicero like argument and then having it have no effect.

Either way, great job to everyone.

I will look for this conversation over there, Tom. I didn't know it was going on.

I like the encounter rules. It was hard at first to put them into practice, but I like how it works now. I see it easier in a Play-by-Post format, as always, because it is easier to think about what you want to say as you write a post than to have to do it off the cuff of a dice roll while sitting at a table.

Glad you guys enjoyed this scene so far. I have a lot more to come...

Quote from: tomcat on Jan 22, 2017, 08:38 PMI am not sure if the PC's know that the three Ringwraiths have returned to Mirkwood. Maybe the one in Dol Guldur, but not the other two. I can't remember if they were directly relayed that information from someone... maybe Radagast? I would have to search the threads.

That said, I do not want you guys to change anything you have posted - it is all fine. I just want to remind you all that you are each limited to a certain amount of character knowledge, even though your personal knowledge on Tolkien is vast. Take everything you know from the books, the movies, the RPG info and ask yourself how much would my PC really know of this.

Mother Leyna told us as much, last year in the Sunstead.  As for the rest, absolutely - words to live by. 

My comments earlier about inflating TNs weren't meant as criticism - this is the first time it's come up, and like you said, Thranduil is a prick.  I was a little concerned, but you had an explanation and that was all I was after. 

Mother Leyna! I freaking forgot about her.

With our previous LotR campaign - actually for all my other campaigns - I took the threads from each chapter and cleaned out all the OOC stuff and mechanics, and made them into novel like PDF chapters. It made for a helluva good resource to find story moments, as well as refreshed this GM's brain of everything he freaking wrote!

I really need to do that with this story. Not only because it would help me remember when and what happened, but because this is a really damn good tale we're spinning!

Sounds like fun!  I do enjoy reading the highlights you post on G+ from time to time. 

Doug,
 My bringing it up was purely academic and not looking for a justification of challenges throughout the game. I agree with everything you said about this encounter and the application of Thranduil's background I just was curious about how you built it from a mechanical standpoint.

That's cool, Tom. I am glad my reasoning was sound and that the mechanics were interpreted well into the game.

I am sorry you guys, if my posts came off prickish - I reread the first and it has a touch of annoyance. I will blame it on the fact that it was 1:00AM when posted and I should have been in bed. 

I am a fallible GM and will always appreciate player input, so I didn't mean to come across high and mighty - just wanted to explain and make sure we keep this story rolling.

https://plus.google.com/109111920164626134180/posts/WhBBxrJvctv?sfc=false

If the link works thats the thread where the game was being generally discussed.

Other comments have been made as well about the interaction mechanic elsewhere.

Now that Arbogast has a fancy-pants new axe (which he thinks of as 'the Warden's Axe', having never heard the name of Mordinkai), he really should go about giving Wyrtácléofa back to Theodwin.  It's a fair way out of our way, so I'll do it as an undertaking in a future Fellowship Phase.  In the meantime, my thinking is that he'll carry Wyrtácléofa with him until he comes to somewhere secure but not too inaccessible and then leave it hidden there.  He'll come back to pick it up on his way home, if possible. 

EDIT:

I keep forgetting to roleplay the fact that Arbogast is kinda resentful of the people he's protecting, so I'm making a point of doing it now. 

Doug, don't forget that you can use that to make him fail rolls at dramatically-appropriate moments. 

Sounds good, Paul.

I think that I might give you back your upgrades to Wrytcleofa to apply to something new, if you return as you stated you were going to.

Seeing how few advances a PC really can go through to enhance him/herself, or their weapons (up to the max 6 valour and wisdom), in this game - I think that may give PC's a chance to keep upgrades they make to weapons.

If you guys disagree with this thought, go ahead and chime in with it.

My understanding is that Rewards are part of your character. If you thematically or through narrative return an item something appears or opens to take its mechanical place.