Gutkurr encounter - round 2

[tomcat]

While we're at it, can you crit on a Force power? I don't recall seeing that anywhere, but then again I never got around the erratas...

That makes me wonder, too, even though I applied it in our first conflict. The only thing I see under Force Powers and Natural 20's is it returns all used Force Powers to your suite, but that rule is given under the section on how to regain your powers. I posed this question on the SagaContinues board as well. The Critical Hits damage rule is given under the Attack Roll section of Combat - I guess it comes down to is a Use the Force roll considered an Attack Roll when you are hurling one person/item/creature at another? I feel it is, but we'll see what everyone else says. If I do not get a consistant answer over there, we can take a consensus here and I will House Rule it. The House Rule will probably carry the caveat that you may either select to do double damage -or- return all your Force Powers.

[tomcat]

The official word here is no as they are a product of a skill roll not an attack roll, so the gutkurr's might have lasted a little longer. Oh well, we won't worry about replaying out the rounds because it had a nice cinematic feel to it the way it turned out. This said, I see the words 'attack roll' in a couple of the descriptors of Force Powers which makes me go back to the idea of house ruling a Nat 20 critical for damage.

I will do this on consensus only - give me a post as to whether you would want this as an option. Understand that my caveat will apply to our decision.

[Stefan]

 Hitting your enemy with something seems like an attack to me.  I would say that if you're using the skill as a skill (moving an X-wing out of a swamp) and you get a 20 then you should get your powers back, but if you're using it to do direct damage to an opponent (hitting one Gutkurr with another) then it would count the same as rolling a 20 on an attack roll, just double damage, no force powers back.  On the rare occasion that it could be perceived as either (you pull the x-wing out of the swamp and accidentally set it down on Yoda's foot) then you could decide if the nat 20 gets you force powers or double damage.

[deadpool]

 In the game I'm GMing I take it as normal damage. I think is a little OP otherwise. I mean, let's take a very common Force power like Force grip. If you roll a 20 then you're obviously surpassing the DC 25, so you roll 6d6 for damage. If you spend a FP you roll 8d6. Now, if you crit that, then you can get as much as 96 damage points. And that could be done by a mere lvl 1 jedi. It just seems a bit too much for me. I guess the "you regain your force powers" rule is supposed to be a compensation for that so you get the feelling that rolling a nat 20 actually means something. But there also aren't any critical successes or critical failures on skill checks, so I don't think the game encourages that aspect of the dice rolls. After all, how the dice roll can be changed by any bearded guy with force powers.

[GandalfOfBorg]

  Ya Doug, that's where I got stuck on was the 'attack roll' terminology and the fact that you're using the moved thing as a ranged weapon.  Maybe if a ranged touch attack were required to hit the target of the moved thing.

I don't mind the double damage on Nat20 cuz there are feats and talents (the expenditure of character upgrades for getting those specific abilities) for returning Force Powers to your suite when a Nat20 is rolled. Also gotta remember that the number of Force powers are limited unless a character just spends all character upgrades with those in mind instead of a more well-rounded character.

[Posterboy]

 Haha... I'm the type of DM that like cinematic and climactic battles, so I fudge rolls all the time for my players and NPCs. I think the ending to that encounter totally achieved what RPGs, and Star Wars RPGs in particular, are meant to do -- an exciting, memorable, enjoyable read. It reminds me of our Tempest game, where the Jedi just threw on of the Trooper commanders into the river. Imagining that scene play out was very enjoyable. So... I applaud you, Doug, for making the games just that -- enjoyable to play. 

All that said, if I had to go by the book, I think Deadpool's case seems to capture best the game designers intent. Most direct damage force powers already have a built in damage bonus for high skill rolls which are easy enough to acheive and are not dependent on rolling natural 20s. Martel picking up one enemy and slamming it into another is a great example of this --> He's basically got a +12 to his attack (which is better than any other PC), is able to cause 6d6 damage (which is better than any other PC) to two separate enemies in the same round with only a standard action (which no other PC is able to do). He needed to roll a 13 on UtF to make that happen. And if he happened to have rolled anywhere between 8-12, he would have only had to spend 1 force point and automatically succeeded.

While he can only use this power once per encounter (usually), the power has even more versitility than just damage and he actually got 2 other powers for the price of 1 feat. I can't think of any other talent or feat in the game that offers that kind of power and versitility (much less 3 powers). And, it's pretty easy to beef up that power with two additional feats (Skill Focus {Use the Force} and Force Boon).

To be clear, I'm not complaining. Force powers have always been known to unbalance the game, just as spells do in any DnD game. And... I thought the ending to the encounter was awesome... I wasn't even paying attention to dice rolls.

So, as a common guideline, I'd say that rolling the natural 20 on a force power would give the bonus of returning spent powers back to your suite for reuse rather than having the attack crit. But I'd use it as a guideline. 

[tomcat]

Thanks for the input guys and I agree with both arguments, but I think I am going to fall on the side of Deadpool and Posterboy.

Deadpool sums it up very well the extent of damage that could be done by a simple 1st level Jedi and that gives me pause about unleashing the proverbial beast. If I spend time building a nemesis for you guys and a Nat 20 takes him out instantly - well that would be deflating I think for everyone. Granted Nat 20's don't roll often and it all can be displayed as a climactic moment, but I still think the over-powering will unbalance everything.

So, like I said - encounter 1 will remain as is, but I think we'll follow rules as written (or at least best captured game designer's intent). If Matt rolls another Nat 20 on one of his powers, it will obviously put him in a position to do the maximum of damage and throwing in a Force Point will jack that up higher PLUS he gets all of his used powers back. I think that is pretty nice reward for a Natural 20 critical.

If those on the other side still want to oppose this call, let me know. I am always open to hearing about how you guys want to enjoy the game.

[Posterboy]

 Another interesting note with Move Object is that you can continue to move the object from round to round with a standard action. It does not say whether or not you need to reroll to maintain the movement. While I think if you use the object as a weapon, it would assume that you "released" the object, though the rules don't state that specfically (I don't think). This could make for an interesting strategy for assaulting up a switchback like the Relay Station. Simply have Martel pick up a gargantuan size object (something with a bit of DR) and move it in front of him like a bulldozer, slamming into enemies all the way (or pushing them over an edge), while the rest of the team shields Martel from any opportunistic attacks. Could be fun... but probably not want the designers intended. 

[GandalfOfBorg]

  No problem here, Doug.

[Stefan]

It seems to me that the decision is well thought out and good points were made for both options.  I can definately see why you chose that direction and If I were in your shoes I'd probably have made the same choice.  No arguements here.

[Zilfallion]

Well, I've nothing really against what's been said so far and the decisions that have been made revolving around Nat 20s on Force Powers, I will however mention one small part of the rules

Another interesting note with Move Object is that you can continue to move the object from round to round with a standard action. It does not say whether or not you need to reroll to maintain the movement.

From the official errata we have

Replace the second sentence under Special with the following: "Maintaining the move object power is a standard action, and you must make a new Use the Force check each round. If you suffer damage while maintaining move object, you must succeed on a Use the Force check (DC = 15 + damage taken) to continue concentrating. If you deal damage with the move object power, you cease to be able to maintain it."

[Posterboy]

 Thanks for that clarification, Zil. 

[Zilfallion]

Not a problem.  I'm relatively new to Saga compared to a lot of people, I put together a group online like 10 months ago, and GM for them, but I'm one of those people that has read like every page in every book and have a okay memory for the rules.  And yet, I still throw rules out the window when I GM if it feels right. [Not that my players can tell because none of them ever take the time to read all the rules, just the ones that pertain to shoot+fire/skill checks, and sometimes they're pretty bad on those as well].  ((From probably my main player who actually pays attention to the rules, I had this remark last session: "Put simply, I think you could say an ewok has 20 HD and we'd prolly believe you, considering how much most of us remember of the rules."))

I actively try to avoid being a rules lawyer because of that, but can usually answer most rules questions.  If I'm online before they've already been asked and answered over on TheSagaContinues.

On a side note, if we ever go rogue we need to find ourselves a damned good ship.