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Music to read and post to! (http://cdn-www.swtor.com/sites/all/files/en/misc/music/20111220_bt30/TOR_20_09_the_siege_of_alderaan.mp3)

Situation: PC's are awakened by a hunting pack of (3) gutkurrs who have come for palloos but picked up their scent, too.

ALL Modifiers (situational, physical, weariness, wound conditions):

• All PC/NPC's will suffer a -5 penalty for firing into any melee, unless they are the ones in the melee or have the Precise Shot feat.
• Darkness - PC's suffer a -5 to Perception checks and a -2 to combat unless equipped with low-light gear
• Haywire, Mitts and Martel gain a +1 cover fire Reflex bonus from Booth.
• The gutkurr are Huge creature taking up a 3x3 square and have a 1-suare reach; Ref 17.

Martel - 0/96 Booth - 0/89 Mitts - 0/80 Hammer - 0/91 Haywire - 0/81 Longshot - 0/81 Arrow - 0/120

| | | | | | |

Gutkurr 1 - 38/122 Gutkurr 2 - 0/122 Gutkurr 3 - 0/122

Consumption:
I am not going to be critical with consumption due to the increased capacity of your weapons, unless you guys use autofire, or any grenades.

Initiative:
Haywire (+12) 29
Hammer (+12) 22
Booth (+13) 22
Longshot (+12) 17
Mitts (+12) 14
Gutkurrs (+4) 10
Martel (+13) surprised cannot perform until round 2

---

Team Derecho watch as the pack of gurkurrs close from all directions - the huge beasts making long strides on their two hind legs. Booth looks up at the spike-armored creature as it bares a mouth full of terrible teeth.

 :ooc:If Booth moves to Q-11, R-11, and then up to R-9... would that be consider leaving melee combat, thus granting Gutkurr #1 an attack of opportunity?

 :ooc:  Question to my fellow players: Do we have any formation we want to keep?  If so, I'd love to know.  Focus Fire is generally a good thing, So I thought I'd do a Running Attack down just a bit so no cover granted to #1 from allies there, then move back up to the spot I had before.  I'd technically move before Booth too, so we could focus fire down on #1.  As I've learned playing Mech Games[I know, not the same thing] Focused Fire is the most powerful thing in the game.

 :ooc: Zilfallion, by "focus fire", do you mean everyone attack the same creature and then move on to the next one? If so, yes, I think that is good strategy. ... I'd suggest Martel and Longshot watch our flank and keep #2 busy (Martel is melee, and everytime Longshot aims and hits, his target slides one step down the condition track, which gives the creature some serious penalties pretty quick). If Haywire, Mitts, and Booth nail #1, and Hammer either hits #1 with burst fire or uses autofire sweep to hit both #1 and #3, we should be able to take out #1 fairly quickly and then engage #3.

Quote from: Posterboy on Sep 14, 2013, 02:39 PM
:ooc:If Booth moves to Q-11, R-11, and then up to R-9... would that be consider leaving melee combat, thus granting Gutkurr #1 an attack of opportunity?

:ooc: Yes, Booth will evoke an AoO from both gutkurrs if he moves first. Martel will also evoke an AoO from #3

Haywire will quickly dart in between Martel and Mitts to snap off a shot with a clear line of fire on the first of the creatures that were attacking before backing up to give Booth or Martel to get back into a tighter formation if they needed to.

:00: DC 17 Ranged Assault Blaster Rifle +11 (3d8+5) with point blank shot



:ooc: Yes, when I say "focus fire" I am indeed talking about everyone shooting the same target.  I think concentrated fire is better for this type of situation with few but strong opponents rather than everyone just shooting what's closest to them.

Tactical Info: Moving Down to R10, then back up to Q8.

 :ooc:Really? Am I reading the map wrong? I'm assuming J = "Jedi"/Martel. If that's true, isn't Martel currently out of reach of #2 (gutkurr's have 5ft reach, Martel is 2 squares away) and is 15 ft from #1 and 50 ft from #3. How will he provoke attacks from the gutkurrs (especially #3)?

Also, Booth is adjacent to #1, but if he "withdraws" (SWSE pg153) to Q-11, isn't he in a non-threatened square (10 ft from both #1 and #2) and can therefore move two more squares without an AoO?

Or is my understanding of the 1 square reach faulty? That the gutkurrs actually threaten the area two squares adjacent to them?

He missed! Longshot laughed under his breath as he heard more of the beasts moving in on their camp. Gallows humor. He couldn't help but picture sunrise in this desolate place finding Dsquad half eaten,  their armor scattered around the area like shelled nuts. His first instinct was to crack off another shot at his initial target. But as booth moved down the hill another of the beasts crested the ridge. Maybe he could slow this one down. He had faith in his team to take out the first of the beasts.

:ooc: swift action aim at 2.



Damage if hit

 :ooc:I have the same doubt as posterboy. Also, gutkurr #1 doesn't have cover against me, right?

Quote from: Posterboy on Sep 14, 2013, 07:07 PM:ooc: Really? Am I reading the map wrong? I'm assuming J = "Jedi"/Martel. If that's true, isn't Martel currently out of reach of #2 (gutkurr's have 5ft reach, Martel is 2 squares away) and is 15 ft from #1 and 50 ft from #3. How will he provoke attacks from the gutkurrs (especially #3)?

Also, Booth is adjacent to #1, but if he "withdraws" (SWSE pg153) to Q-11, isn't he in a non-threatened square (10 ft from both #1 and #2) and can therefore move two more squares without an AoO?

Or is my understanding of the 1 square reach faulty? That the gutkurrs actually threaten the area two squares adjacent to them?

:ooc: Sorry, sorry! I was posting on my phone last night and trying to go between post screen and image screen. First, I meant to write gutkurr #2 not #3. Second, you are correct about reach. I misinterpreted the rules when I saw the gutkurrs had a reach of 1 square. I assumed that medium/large always had adjacent square reach so 1-square meant that huge could grasp 1-square away. This was wrong as you already know!  :) I also found that it comes down to the monster - Acklays, for example, are Huge but have a 2-square reach - so it is essentially determined by the creature's physical form, not the size group.

So, I retract my post above and let me re-answer the question:

Yes, Booth can use the Withdraw action to go straight up to Q11 and finish his move in R9.

Lastly, I am using the Saga rules of distance being measured in meters (even though I am in the US and the metric system will throw me every time  ;) ), so each square is equal to 1.5 meters. Terrain is considered rough wherever there is a boulder in it, and a elevation band will also cause a 1.5 movement cost - just so you all know.

:ooc: Results...

Haywire hits gutkurr #1 for 23 - 61/122

Awesome shot, John! To help you out with your PC - because you used 2 SWIFT actions to aim first, your ranged attack mods to use should be the one that says: Ranged sniper rifle* +11 (4d8+8; CT -1) with Point Blank Shot and Deadeye and Debilitating Shot (requires Aim)

Your PC is in Point Blank range which gives you the +1 to attack and damage and Deadeye and Debilitating shot both occur automatically if you aim.

So, Longshot hits gutkurr #2 with a 30 for 20 damage and a CT -1  ... 20/122 CT-1

If you want to add it with your attack post, you can click the icon that is a TN (for target number). This auto-fills text and the dice icon like this:

:00: DC -- skill info

You just then need to overwrite the two -- with your DC number (if you know it) and then I copy/paste the attack mod from the PC sheet to the text line above over the skill info.

But it's your choice.

Quote from: deadpool on Sep 15, 2013, 04:39 AM:ooc:I have the same doubt as posterboy. Also, gutkurr #1 doesn't have cover against me, right?

:ooc: No, Mitts has a clear shot to gutkurr #1. The creature is slightly above you though on the higher terrain - this is the reason why Hammer also has LOS to him and not blocked by the Arrow.

Booth smiled at his team, even though his attention was focused on the monster before him. They were all up and responding as a team directing concentrated fire on the primary threat, while Longshot fired debilitating shots at the approaching threats.

The gutkurr to the south was in a rage. Its carapace was being torn apart and the soft flesh underneath was now being ripped into. Gobbets of black goo flew from it splattering on the men and their canopied vehicle.

 :ooc:Totally no worries, Doug. Thanks for the correction.

Booth felt the beast's hot breath, spittle and black goo hit his armor. He took a step back, looking to create a chokepoint between the Arrow and the hillside, and moved himself next to Mitts. His rifle lit up again sending searing bolts at the frenzied beast.

:ooc:
Move action: Withdraw to Q11, move to R11

 :ooc:I'll use a force point to hit the thing:

 :ooc:  Don't forget to put my initiative in somewhere now.

Martel gets his wits about him.  Seeing the huge beast near him, he gets up and the first thing he thinks of is to get it away from them all.  Summoning the Force, he attempts to will the beast into the others.

:ooc: Move #1 into #2
DC 25 (Huge object)

 :ooc: I of course do not want to crush Booth with the action  :P

"Come on! Get together and keep shooting guys!" shouted the medic over the heavy blaster fire and the howling beasts.

:ooc:I'll just shoot #1

Attack
Damage

Hammer took a moment to brace his weapon and fired again on the same creature that he'd already hit.

Ranged heavy assault blaster rifle* +10 (5d10+8) with Burst Fire and braced and Point Blank Shot

To Hit:

Damage:

 :ooc: I was just running through the numbers and by my math we're up to 127 damage on #1 before Hammer shot.  Assuming that all our attacks hit and he falls down Hammer would then fire at #2, since they just slammed into one another and he wouldnt have to redirect his aim by much.

:ooc: Okay, Matt rolled a Nat 20 on his Use the Force [Move Object] which hoists gutkurr 1 into gutkurr 2 and does damage x 2, so 46 to BOTH! Nice roll, Matt!

So to go with Stefan's inquiry, here is the procession of damage on G#1 and G#2

G#1 starts the round with 38 damage. Haywire hits for 23 (61); Booth hits for 22 (83); Martel slams one into the other for 46 (129) --- G#1 is DEAD

G#2 starts the round with 0 damage. Longshot hits for 20 (20) CT-1; Martel slams one into the other for 46 (66) CT-1; I will allow Mitts and Hammer to have directed fire at # 2 for 21 and 36 respectively which comes to 66 + 21 +36 = 123 CT-1 G#2 is DEAD!

And so, just like that these things are nothing but jelly.

As Booth's fire tore into the creatures abdomen, behind him Martel reached out with the Force and grabbed the wriggling gutkurr. The Jedi hoisted the thing quickly up and then 'threw' it with his arcane powers. The ravaged gutkurr's mass struck the one nearest it atop the hill and for a second both were knocked to the ground, but only one raised its head. As if a cue, Hammer and Mitts directed their fire on the struggling animal. The blaster fire tore into its face and jaw and large chunks of it were blown away. With a croaking sigh the thing dropped its head and did not move again.

On the southern side of the hillock, the remaining gutkurr watched as its companions were torn to pieces atop the hill. In mere seconds its powerful pack had been gutted and though its natural instinct was to kill and eat, it knew that it would be death. The last gutkurr snuffed at the air and then turned to the south and began to run into the broken landscape.

---

:ooc: Nice teamwork guys - I thought that might make for a bit of a struggle for you all... I'll have to re-evaluate for next encounter.  ;)

I was a little concerned myself for a while there, but that Move Object roll was a great call and the double damage to 2 of them I think made the real difference.  Good work guys.

Hammer scanned the darkness around the camp for a few more minutes. The sudden silence once the two creatures had been put down was almost deafening.  Once he was sure that nothing more was coming from his sector of fire he let his brothers know with a quick, "Clear," then waited for them to respond in kind.

 :ooc:I agree... there was definitely a bit of luck involved there. Not only in Martel's move object roll (nice play, by the way), but in all our rolls... Most of us hit with damage rolls over 20. On average, most of us should be hitting just 20. The "focused fire" move here was also a good play. Hitting a REF 17 shouldn't be hard for us on most days, but the creature's whole grapple/crush move would have been pretty devastating had it pulled it off. Melee fights for most of us is not really where we want to be. Crowds (like a dozen or so) of low level enemies with enough hit points to withstand 1 attack (so, 20-25 hit points) will likely be tricky for us, especially if their REF is closer to 20 and they come with the "coordinated attack" feat... damage reduction would also stink. Anyway... all that to say, Doug, don't go too gritty yet.  We're still shiny. ;) Also, Stefan, just wanted to say I appreciated the Serenity/Firefly reference with "Vera".


Booth watched the last of the gutkurrs retreat into the darkness and scanned the area for more targets. Hammer's voice came though his comm-set, "Clear."

Booth echoed his squadmate, "Clear. Longshot, take watch. I want to know if our skirmish alerted the station. Haywire, you're up there too. Make sure nothing else hungry comes sneaking up on us."

Turning towards Martel, the sergeant smiled as he took his helmet off. He loved the quick efficiency of his squad, and this encounter was about as quick as could be hoped for. "Nice work, Commander. Shall we continue to press on and assault the station now?"

"Well, that was easy" said Mitts, relaxing his muscles and putting down his rifle after hearing the clear sign form Hammer. "Is everybody okay?" he promplty asked, looking around at his teammates.

The young Jedi raised an eyebrow at Mitts and chuckled a little, "Easy?  I was just hoping to scare 'em a little."  Something else though niggled at the back of his mind, a lesson learned a lifetime ago.  Ya, ya, Master Yoda, I know.  Martel nodded to Booth in gratitude, stifled a yawn, and shook his head one more time to clear the remaining cobwebs.  "Now that we've been so rudely awakened, might as well.  Water and chow, too, guys.  Don't know when we're gonna get another chance for awhile."

:ooc: Just curious Doug, cuz I couldn't find it anywhere in my books, but is there somewhere that says that level damage doesn't apply to Force-applied damage unlike with standard weapons?

Once he knew they were safe hammer turned and sat down, his back to the Arrow.  He had to agree with Mitts that it had been easy but he was confident that if they'd gotten closer their luck would quicly have run out.  "I'm good," he said in response to Mitts' question.

He quickly field stripped his rifle and gave her a quick inspection and cleaning.  Blasters wouldn't jam up like a slug thrower, but there were plenty of other problems that could crop up if you didnt keep them clean and in order. It might mean the difference between life and death for his whole team, food could wait a few minutes. 

"If you don't mind, Commander, I'm going to try to catch a few more winks.  I ate some rations while I was on watch and I've only been down for a couple of hours. I'll pack everything up and be ready to move out. Ok?"

Watching the beasts go down to D-squad's concentrated attack, Haywire kept a close eye on them for a little while to make sure they weren't still breathing.  The third of them seemed to have realized it's attack would have been suicidal if it had continued and ran away. 

After being ordered up onto watch he didn't mind.  After combat he'd be unable to fall asleep for at least a short while.  "Affirmative."  He'd make his way up to the perch ontop of the small hill that they were using to get a good look at the surrounding landscape.  Keeping an eye out for any patrols alerted by the small firefight was important, but due to the distance it was unlikely the short blaster fire had alerted the station.

:ooc: Firefly references are always great.  Loved the series.

Quote from: GandalfOfBorg on Sep 17, 2013, 08:26 AM:ooc: Just curious Doug, cuz I couldn't find it anywhere in my books, but is there somewhere that says that level damage doesn't apply to Force-applied damage unlike with standard weapons?

:ooc: Hey Matt, the damage bonus is defined on page 36 of the Core Rule Book in the first paragraph. It states: Your character deals extra damage on melee and ranged attacks equalt to one-half her character level, rounded down. The damage from a Force Power would add the additional damage if it defines the power use as a ranged attack. To verify this, I am running it through the SWSE think-tank of higher knowledge over at TheSagaContinues.

 :ooc:While we're at it, can you crit on a Force power? I don't recall seeing that anywhere, but then again I never got around the erratas...

Quote from: deadpool on Sep 17, 2013, 06:25 PM:ooc:While we're at it, can you crit on a Force power? I don't recall seeing that anywhere, but then again I never got around the erratas...

:ooc: That makes me wonder, too, even though I applied it in our first conflict. The only thing I see under Force Powers and Natural 20's is it returns all used Force Powers to your suite, but that rule is given under the section on how to regain your powers. I posed this question on the SagaContinues board as well. The Critical Hits damage rule is given under the Attack Roll section of Combat - I guess it comes down to is a Use the Force roll considered an Attack Roll when you are hurling one person/item/creature at another? I feel it is, but we'll see what everyone else says. If I do not get a consistant answer over there, we can take a consensus here and I will House Rule it. The House Rule will probably carry the caveat that you may either select to do double damage -or- return all your Force Powers.

:ooc: The official word here is no as they are a product of a skill roll not an attack roll, so the gutkurr's might have lasted a little longer. Oh well, we won't worry about replaying out the rounds because it had a nice cinematic feel to it the way it turned out. This said, I see the words 'attack roll' in a couple of the descriptors of Force Powers which makes me go back to the idea of house ruling a Nat 20 critical for damage.

I will do this on consensus only - give me a post as to whether you would want this as an option. Understand that my caveat will apply to our decision.

 Hitting your enemy with something seems like an attack to me.  I would say that if you're using the skill as a skill (moving an X-wing out of a swamp) and you get a 20 then you should get your powers back, but if you're using it to do direct damage to an opponent (hitting one Gutkurr with another) then it would count the same as rolling a 20 on an attack roll, just double damage, no force powers back.  On the rare occasion that it could be perceived as either (you pull the x-wing out of the swamp and accidentally set it down on Yoda's foot) then you could decide if the nat 20 gets you force powers or double damage.

 :ooc:In the game I'm GMing I take it as normal damage. I think is a little OP otherwise. I mean, let's take a very common Force power like Force grip. If you roll a 20 then you're obviously surpassing the DC 25, so you roll 6d6 for damage. If you spend a FP you roll 8d6. Now, if you crit that, then you can get as much as 96 damage points. And that could be done by a mere lvl 1 jedi. It just seems a bit too much for me. I guess the "you regain your force powers" rule is supposed to be a compensation for that so you get the feelling that rolling a nat 20 actually means something. But there also aren't any critical successes or critical failures on skill checks, so I don't think the game encourages that aspect of the dice rolls. After all, how the dice roll can be changed by any bearded guy with force powers.

 :ooc: Ya Doug, that's where I got stuck on was the 'attack roll' terminology and the fact that you're using the moved thing as a ranged weapon.  Maybe if a ranged touch attack were required to hit the target of the moved thing.

I don't mind the double damage on Nat20 cuz there are feats and talents (the expenditure of character upgrades for getting those specific abilities) for returning Force Powers to your suite when a Nat20 is rolled. Also gotta remember that the number of Force powers are limited unless a character just spends all character upgrades with those in mind instead of a more well-rounded character.

 :ooc:Haha... I'm the type of DM that like cinematic and climactic battles, so I fudge rolls all the time for my players and NPCs. I think the ending to that encounter totally achieved what RPGs, and Star Wars RPGs in particular, are meant to do -- an exciting, memorable, enjoyable read. It reminds me of our Tempest game, where the Jedi just threw on of the Trooper commanders into the river. Imagining that scene play out was very enjoyable. So... I applaud you, Doug, for making the games just that -- enjoyable to play.  :tup:

All that said, if I had to go by the book, I think Deadpool's case seems to capture best the game designers intent. Most direct damage force powers already have a built in damage bonus for high skill rolls which are easy enough to acheive and are not dependent on rolling natural 20s. Martel picking up one enemy and slamming it into another is a great example of this --> He's basically got a +12 to his attack (which is better than any other PC), is able to cause 6d6 damage (which is better than any other PC) to two separate enemies in the same round with only a standard action (which no other PC is able to do). He needed to roll a 13 on UtF to make that happen. And if he happened to have rolled anywhere between 8-12, he would have only had to spend 1 force point and automatically succeeded.

While he can only use this power once per encounter (usually), the power has even more versitility than just damage and he actually got 2 other powers for the price of 1 feat. I can't think of any other talent or feat in the game that offers that kind of power and versitility (much less 3 powers). And, it's pretty easy to beef up that power with two additional feats (Skill Focus {Use the Force} and Force Boon).

To be clear, I'm not complaining. Force powers have always been known to unbalance the game, just as spells do in any DnD game. And... I thought the ending to the encounter was awesome... I wasn't even paying attention to dice rolls.

So, as a common guideline, I'd say that rolling the natural 20 on a force power would give the bonus of returning spent powers back to your suite for reuse rather than having the attack crit. But I'd use it as a guideline.  :tup:

:ooc: Thanks for the input guys and I agree with both arguments, but I think I am going to fall on the side of Deadpool and Posterboy.

Deadpool sums it up very well the extent of damage that could be done by a simple 1st level Jedi and that gives me pause about unleashing the proverbial beast. If I spend time building a nemesis for you guys and a Nat 20 takes him out instantly - well that would be deflating I think for everyone. Granted Nat 20's don't roll often and it all can be displayed as a climactic moment, but I still think the over-powering will unbalance everything.

So, like I said - encounter 1 will remain as is, but I think we'll follow rules as written (or at least best captured game designer's intent). If Matt rolls another Nat 20 on one of his powers, it will obviously put him in a position to do the maximum of damage and throwing in a Force Point will jack that up higher PLUS he gets all of his used powers back. I think that is pretty nice reward for a Natural 20 critical.

If those on the other side still want to oppose this call, let me know. I am always open to hearing about how you guys want to enjoy the game.

 :ooc:Another interesting note with Move Object is that you can continue to move the object from round to round with a standard action. It does not say whether or not you need to reroll to maintain the movement. While I think if you use the object as a weapon, it would assume that you "released" the object, though the rules don't state that specfically (I don't think). This could make for an interesting strategy for assaulting up a switchback like the Relay Station. Simply have Martel pick up a gargantuan size object (something with a bit of DR) and move it in front of him like a bulldozer, slamming into enemies all the way (or pushing them over an edge), while the rest of the team shields Martel from any opportunistic attacks. Could be fun... but probably not want the designers intended.  ;D

 :ooc: No problem here, Doug.

It seems to me that the decision is well thought out and good points were made for both options.  I can definately see why you chose that direction and If I were in your shoes I'd probably have made the same choice.  No arguements here.

 :ooc: Well, I've nothing really against what's been said so far and the decisions that have been made revolving around Nat 20s on Force Powers, I will however mention one small part of the rules

Quote from: Posterboy on Sep 18, 2013, 06:58 AM
:ooc:Another interesting note with Move Object is that you can continue to move the object from round to round with a standard action. It does not say whether or not you need to reroll to maintain the movement.

From the official errata we have

QuoteReplace the second sentence under Special with the following: "Maintaining the move object power is a standard action, and you must make a new Use the Force check each round. If you suffer damage while maintaining move object, you must succeed on a Use the Force check (DC = 15 + damage taken) to continue concentrating. If you deal damage with the move object power, you cease to be able to maintain it."

 :ooc:Thanks for that clarification, Zil.  :tup:

 :ooc: Not a problem.  I'm relatively new to Saga compared to a lot of people, I put together a group online like 10 months ago, and GM for them, but I'm one of those people that has read like every page in every book and have a okay memory for the rules.  And yet, I still throw rules out the window when I GM if it feels right. [Not that my players can tell because none of them ever take the time to read all the rules, just the ones that pertain to shoot+fire/skill checks, and sometimes they're pretty bad on those as well].  ((From probably my main player who actually pays attention to the rules, I had this remark last session: "Put simply, I think you could say an ewok has 20 HD and we'd prolly believe you, considering how much most of us remember of the rules."))

I actively try to avoid being a rules lawyer because of that, but can usually answer most rules questions.  If I'm online before they've already been asked and answered over on TheSagaContinues.

On a side note, if we ever go rogue we need to find ourselves a damned good ship.